2 1/2 Hours of Tears and My Morality Comes Into Question

Amdist a sea of tears and smack, sometimes one finds themselves suddenly covered with a wave of preaching and guilt trips. It’s a tactic that some people use when trying to argue their point against ninja salvaging. In their eyes, you are not just a bastard for taking their salvage, your very morale fiber comes into question.

These people are convinced that their outlook on how the game should be played outshines all other outlooks, and like a religious zealot, they will try to preach those views to anyone with a set of ears. Unfortunately, not unlike religious zealots, these people are extremely quick to tell you their views, while they are seldom willing to accept, or even listen to yours. You are, in their eyes, a heathen.

After stripping a mission clean of loot and salvage, I received a convo request from the mission runner. Frustrated that he doesn’t have much time to play and that he cannot do a mission without getting ninja salvaged, he proceeds to tell me his story of woe, while trying to convince me that I am a bad person for “ruining” other peoples’ fun. The convo was a long one - over two and a half hours long – zealots are long winded as they are narrow minded, but I admit that I did my best to keep him griping. To give you an idea of how long this guy went on, I copied the convo and pasted it into Microsoft Word, and it came out to be 20 pages long. 20 pages of tears! I’ve gone through the chat log picked out the nuggets of weirdness so that you don’t have to. 

[ 2009.10.13 05:18:12 ] Velocity Prime > o/

[ 2009.10.13 05:18:23 ] Jack Farseer > Hi

[ 2009.10.13 05:19:18 ] Jack Farseer > I am really busting my ass to work up the cash I owe a friend, and the only way I can do it is through missions, cause it's all I know how to do.

[ 2009.10.13 05:20:03 ] Velocity Prime > And?

[ 2009.10.13 05:20:16 ] Jack Farseer > Of course it is obvious you don't give a rats ass about that or me or the general group of people playing this game, but why is it that I can't be allowed to at least loot my own stuff?

[ 2009.10.13 05:20:44 ] Velocity Prime > Well, while you've been sitting around back here, I cleaned out the rest of your mission

[ 2009.10.13 05:22:27 ] Jack Farseer > I just wish that /sometimes/ you'd meet someone who'd give a guy a break.

-----

[ 2009.10.13 05:24:41 ] Velocity Prime > And when you mission in my system, I loot what I want

[ 2009.10.13 05:24:57 ] Jack Farseer > But why that attitude? How does that serve you really?

[ 2009.10.13 05:26:33 ] Velocity Prime > It serves me just fine. I make ISK. I fight when I like. I get to interact with others.

[ 2009.10.13 05:27:22 ] Velocity Prime > Am I missing something?

[ 2009.10.13 05:27:26 ] Jack Farseer > And get a good feeling and delight in making other real people feel bad. That is pretty sad. I am sorry you turned out that way.

[ 2009.10.13 05:27:43 ] Velocity Prime > Hmm...

[ 2009.10.13 05:27:50 ] Velocity Prime > We're still playing a game right?

[ 2009.10.13 05:28:02 ] Jack Farseer > The game is a game. The hours you put in are real.

[ 2009.10.13 05:28:24 ] Jack Farseer > When your actions take away from the fun of others who also just want to play and have fun... that is more than just playing a game.

[ 2009.10.13 05:28:48 ] Jack Farseer > The old excuse "it is just a game" does not fit well with MMO's.

[ 2009.10.13 05:29:23 ] Velocity Prime > Ahh... So you think your play style is superior to mine?

[ 2009.10.13 05:29:59 ] Jack Farseer > I think my play style adds to the fun of others, and I think my play style will not take away from the fun of others.

[ 2009.10.13 05:30:53 ] Velocity Prime > So my play style is taking away from your fun?

[ 2009.10.13 05:32:13 ] Jack Farseer > Since a mission like that takes me a couple of hours of play, and since I do it in order to be able to do things that give me fun, what you did was taking away an hour of my real life that I could and would have used for something fun. Instead I need to make another task for isk, because you took mine instead of making your own.

[ 2009.10.13 05:33:16 ] Jack Farseer > And I know you are not breaking any rules or anything. That is not what I am talking about. I am not talking about illegality, only immorality.

[ 2009.10.13 05:34:30 ] Velocity Prime > First of all, if that mission is taking you a few hours to complete, you are doing it wrong. Second of all, immorality is in the eye of the beholder. What I am doing is perfectly legitimate, and in fact, by you attempting to impede my play style, you are, by your logic, stopping my fun.

[ 2009.10.13 05:35:32 ] Velocity Prime > You are in charge of your own fun.

[ 2009.10.13 05:35:37 ] Velocity Prime > You can choose what to do.

[ 2009.10.13 05:35:58 ] Velocity Prime > You can start convos with ninja salvagers and cry about their actions, or you can do something about it,

[ 2009.10.13 05:36:07 ] Velocity Prime > You could have killed me.

[ 2009.10.13 05:36:20 ] Velocity Prime > You can have your friends help you salvage....this is an MMO

[ 2009.10.13 05:36:26 ] Velocity Prime > You can wardec me.

[ 2009.10.13 05:36:30 ] Velocity Prime > you can hire mercs

[ 2009.10.13 05:36:37 ] Velocity Prime > the possibilities are endless

[ 2009.10.13 05:37:14 ] Velocity Prime > You choosing to NOT have fun because of my actions is your own fault.

[ 2009.10.13 05:37:27 ] Jack Farseer > It is the weak you prey on, not those who can afford it.

[ 2009.10.13 05:37:39 ] Velocity Prime > I salvage everyone

-----

[ 2009.10.13 05:40:17 ] Velocity Prime > Listen. Salvaging is not "illegal".

[ 2009.10.13 05:40:30 ] Jack Farseer > And I specifically pointed that out above.

[ 2009.10.13 05:40:42 ] Velocity Prime > So now what is the problem?

[ 2009.10.13 05:41:34 ] Jack Farseer > Salvaging something that was meant for someone else, someone that worked a lot harder for it than you, and who needs it a lot more than you, is just a shitty thing to do.

[ 2009.10.13 05:42:21 ] Velocity Prime > Well that's your view. I view it as a source of income. CCP encourages ninja salvaging

[ 2009.10.13 05:42:27 ] Jack Farseer > And if you asked anyone with a sense of right or wrong he'd say the same. Hiding behind the fact this is a game may make you sleep better at night, but the actual act is the same wherever it is done.

[ 2009.10.13 05:42:56 ] Velocity Prime > Then you need to get out of your mom's basement more

[ 2009.10.13 05:43:06 ] Jack Farseer > =)

[ 2009.10.13 05:43:47 ] Velocity Prime > Come on dude, you're not having fun right now?  ;)

[ 2009.10.13 05:44:06 ] Jack Farseer > Not a whole lot.

[ 2009.10.13 05:44:53 ] Jack Farseer > And what I said when I started talking to you is true. I owe a lot of money and I get ninjad every second mission or worse. I am getting ready to quit.

-----

[ 2009.10.13 05:48:19 ] Jack Farseer > And while we're being frank, can you honestly say that ninja stealing other peoples' loot makes you feel like a righteous enhancer of others' fun?

[ 2009.10.13 05:48:36 ] Velocity Prime > Haha

[ 2009.10.13 05:48:47 ] Velocity Prime > My job is not to make sure you have fun

[ 2009.10.13 05:48:59 ] Velocity Prime > I dont pay a subscription for you

[ 2009.10.13 05:50:01 ] Jack Farseer > Exactly. You /take/ your fun, because your fun is your own responsibility. If it ruins the funs of others that's not your concern, because their fun is their fucking business, not youres. Right? =)

[ 2009.10.13 05:50:24 ] Jack Farseer > You're not responsible.

[ 2009.10.13 05:50:28 ] Jack Farseer > It's not your fault.

[ 2009.10.13 05:50:34 ] Jack Farseer > Your hands are clean.

[ 2009.10.13 05:50:36 ] Velocity Prime > Pretty much, yeah. I have no responsibility to make sure that all of EVE is having a good time.

[ 2009.10.13 05:50:40 ] Jack Farseer > Your soul and heart are clean. LOL

[ 2009.10.13 05:50:54 ] Velocity Prime > So it is said, so it shall be done.

[ 2009.10.13 05:51:06 ] Jack Farseer > Oh dear...

[ 2009.10.13 05:51:35 ] Jack Farseer > I am begining to fear you actually in fullest honest truth believe in that.

[ 2009.10.13 05:52:13 ] Velocity Prime > I have no illusions of internet honor or a code of bullshido.

[ 2009.10.13 05:52:23 ] Jack Farseer > I know.

-----

[ 2009.10.13 06:10:53 ] Velocity Prime > You have no exclusive rights to the wrecks

[ 2009.10.13 06:11:05 ] Velocity Prime > Therefore, first one in gets the salvage

[ 2009.10.13 06:11:27 ] Jack Farseer > Well, I could argue they have my name on them. Even my picture actually. =)

[ 2009.10.13 06:12:57 ] Velocity Prime > They do. And the loot insde those wrecks is for the person that destroyed it. The salvage however is not

[ 2009.10.13 06:13:03 ] Velocity Prime > Not a tough concept

[ 2009.10.13 06:13:24 ] Jack Farseer > You must have taken some of my loot to though.

[ 2009.10.13 06:13:35 ] Velocity Prime > I took a bunch of loot

[ 2009.10.13 06:13:36 ] Velocity Prime > :D

[ 2009.10.13 06:15:45 ] Jack Farseer > So since you yourself believe that the loot in the wrecks are for the person who destroyed them, you took them just so that you could also get to kill me for some extra joy in setting me back here in "your" system?

[ 2009.10.13 06:16:18 ] Velocity Prime > Yeah

[ 2009.10.13 06:16:38 ] Velocity Prime > And for more ISKies too, I'm not a complete asshole

-----

[ 2009.10.13 06:20:59 ] Jack Farseer > Ask six billion people in the world about your behaviour and I'd be surprised if 1 out of a thousand said it seemed like you were a good and decent guy.

[ 2009.10.13 06:21:54 ] Velocity Prime > Yeah, you're right. EVE would be better if everyone tiptoed around like fairies in a rose garden, where everyone was scared of offending someone, or taking someone else’s space.

[ 2009.10.13 06:22:10 ] Velocity Prime > Come on dude.

[ 2009.10.13 06:22:35 ] Jack Farseer > Would it be better if all of them were like you?

[ 2009.10.13 06:23:12 ] Jack Farseer > You may think that your actions make this a better game, but that won't change that you're the asshole while the guy who helps people out are decent.

[ 2009.10.13 06:23:42 ] Jack Farseer > Again we're talking ethics, not legality or eula or what CCP endorses or not.

[ 2009.10.13 06:24:00 ] Velocity Prime > Ethics....

[ 2009.10.13 06:24:29 ] Jack Farseer > Yah, the general opinion of what is right and wrong.

[ 2009.10.13 06:25:08 ] Jack Farseer > In a moral sense, not legal.

[ 2009.10.13 06:25:23 ] Velocity Prime > How come we all have to succumb to how you think the game should be played? You think it would be better if everyone was worried about killing the next guy?

[ 2009.10.13 06:25:58 ] Velocity Prime > Yay! we can all shoot rats in belts and everyone will be happy!

[ 2009.10.13 06:26:40 ] Jack Farseer > That has nothing to do with anything I've been saying though.

[ 2009.10.13 06:27:59 ] Velocity Prime > It doesn't? Forcing one set of morals vs. another on a population is different?

[ 2009.10.13 06:28:34 ] Jack Farseer > Well, you are forcing your set of morals on me, so you tell me.

[ 2009.10.13 06:28:59 ] Jack Farseer > All I ask is to be left alone.

[ 2009.10.13 06:30:25 ] Velocity Prime > I'm not forcing anything. You are choosing to play in a game where the reality is that of a harsh universe. An open-ended system where anything can happen. If you choose to want to be left alone, you are playing the wrong game. I hear Mario Bros is awesome.

[ 2009.10.13 06:33:48 ] Jack Farseer > No, I am not saying this should be one big happy cake party with clowns and dolls. I was just asking you to please have enough heart to let a guy who's having a hard time getting by have a break.

[ 2009.10.13 06:34:15 ] Jack Farseer > I'm not saying you should be banned, I'm just asking you to understand.

[ 2009.10.13 06:34:28 ] Jack Farseer > It's not fun to be raped even if it is just in a game.

-----

[ 2009.10.13 06:44:08 ] Velocity Prime > For real dude. You need to take a step back from the computer game.

[ 2009.10.13 06:47:17 ] Jack Farseer > I don't. I am discussing your personal character, and that is what it is whether I play the game or not. Has very little (or rather nothing actually) to do with the game. ,)

[ 2009.10.13 06:49:12 ] Velocity Prime > My personal character is in question?

[ 2009.10.13 06:49:20 ] Jack Farseer > Ehh....

[ 2009.10.13 06:49:24 ] Velocity Prime > In that case, I question your manhood.

[ 2009.10.13 06:49:28 ] Jack Farseer > Have we discussed anything else?

[ 2009.10.13 06:51:47 ] Velocity Prime > I guess I must have missed that part.

-----

[ 2009.10.13 07:01:58 ] Jack Farseer > Is there a tax or something one could pay to be left alone from your group?

[ 2009.10.13 07:02:59 ] Velocity Prime > We've had such arrangements in the past, yes.

[ 2009.10.13 07:03:34 ] Jack Farseer > And what does that cost?

[ 2009.10.13 07:04:48 ] Jack Farseer > I just want to be able to finish a mission and have that feeling of "Yes! I did it!"

-----

[ 2009.10.13 07:12:25 ] Jack Farseer > I know you only do what the game pretty much tells you to do. If you didn't ninja, someone else would. But can you really not see how it affects people in my situation in the bigger picture or were you simply kicking some dirt around when we spoke on that?

[ 2009.10.13 07:13:20 ] Velocity Prime > I can understand that it affects people's wallet, yes.

[ 2009.10.13 07:14:49 ] Jack Farseer > /emote sighs

[ 2009.10.13 07:14:55 ] Jack Farseer > I give up.

[ 2009.10.13 07:15:17 ] Jack Farseer > And I can't keep trying to do missions here.

[ 2009.10.13 07:15:43 ] Jack Farseer > So I'm gonna have to go back to lvl 3's somewhere else, or start on a new npc corp to do missions for.

-----

[ 2009.10.13 07:22:19 ] Velocity Prime > I hear ninja salvaging can be profitable

[ 2009.10.13 07:24:08 ] Jack Farseer > Preying on the weak and unsuspecting with a backup fleet in the good event they try to defend their mission so that one can "liberate" their modules too?

[ 2009.10.13 07:24:54 ] Jack Farseer > Sounds like a swell job I'd be proud to tell my grandchildren about one day.

[ 2009.10.13 07:25:20 ] Velocity Prime > heh I'm sure your grandchildren will be thrilled to hear about your online gaming experiences

[ 2009.10.13 07:25:32 ] Jack Farseer > If you think I sound bitter it might be because I am a bit. I don't know what to do really.

I have to admit, I feel a little bit sorry for Jack. Not because he gets ninja'ed all the time, but because of his lack of vision and because he seems to be at a loss of what to do. He seems to be stuck in a game where all he knows how to do is run missions, when the fact of the matter is that in EVE the whole universe is out there for the taking. All you have to do is be able to wrap your head around that concept. No one is forcing him to stay in Dodixie. No one is forcing him to keep running the same old missions with the same old NPC corporation.

The fact that he can't see out of his little box and into the bigger picture is not his problem alone, but it is a problem that belongs to countless numbers of players who insist on doing the same things over and over. They sit in the same few systems, keep running the same missions, and keep shooting the same rats that they have been shooting for years. If that is your idea of fun, great. Shoot 'em up. But when you try to convince others around you to step inside your little box, that's where I draw the line and where your preaching of warped morality falls short. I don't play by "your" rules.

So sayeth the heathen.

Comments

[Paul Clavet]

I read the whole thing, and I think that your responses were excellent. If anything, you gave the guy way too much in the way of explanations, and not enough abuse.

"[ 2009.10.13 06:33:48 ] Jack Farseer > No, I am not saying this should be one big happy cake party with clowns and dolls. I was just asking you to please have enough heart to let a guy who's having a hard time getting by have a break."

That is what his entire argument comes down to. Somewhere he missed the memo that in this video game, one makes one's own breaks. I've gotten where I am without anyone giving me anything, and I suspect you are in the same position, Prime. Shoot, if you really want an advantage you can even get that by way of PLEX converting cash to ISK.

The fact that he feels obligated to run missions "in order to be able to do things that give [him] fun" is incredibly sad. When you are paying a subscription fee to spend hours of your life "working" on missions in order to finally "earn your fun" then you're essentially paying to work a job you hate. In that sense, yes, he could and should be doing something else with his time that he enjoys. Heck, he could at least be furthering his education or working a second (real) job, then he'd actually be moving himself forward in life even if he wasn't enjoying the process.

Me? I haul and trade to make my spending money in Eve. The difference is that I enjoy the trading almost as much as I enjoy pew-pewing missionrunners.

Playing Eve and saying you're never able to get a chance to have fun is like being born in America (or any other highly developed capitalist country, really) and insisting that the whole world is against you and you'll never amount to anything. In both cases physical or mental impairment may make that true for a tiny, tiny fraction of the population, but the vast majority have nobody to blame but themselves when they end up being mediocre and unhappy.

(End of rant)

[jamenta]

>> vast majority have nobody to blame but themselves when they end up being mediocre
>> and unhappy.

In the Middle Ages, when a person was born into poverty - that would stay the case for their entire lives with a few rare exceptions. You had the aristocrats and popes and then you had the rest of the serfs and peasants. But the thing is, when you were born a serf, everybody knew you were one and you were part of that caste and would stay a serf until death.

These days, when you're born into poverty, and most markedly in the USA, the chances are somewhat better than the middle ages for income mobility - but not a hell of a lot more, in fact, for the last couple of decades income mobility in US has actually decreased markedly ... that is to say, those who are poor are much less likely to rise out of their poverty and also - those who are rich, are less likely to become poor. Income inequity in the USA right now also stands at an all time high, more than even the Rockefeller 1920's ... where the top 1% of Americans now control more wealth than the bottom 90% of Americans combined (and those bottom 90% Americans are working more than any other Industrial country to make the 1% wealthy).

Now the real irony however of today's US culture, is not only are a growing number of Americans entering poverty ... it is estimated in a few years 25% of American children will be living in poverty, and income mobility is continuing to decline .. but unlike the Middle Ages, where if you were born poor, you expected and everyone else expected you to remain poor since you were "Serf class" - but now, not only are you going to probably remain poor all your life in USA - but you are going to be BLAMED for it as well. That is, if you're poor and remain poor in US, it's your own fault.

So today's poor people IMO have it even worse in some ways than the poor in the Middle ages because now they also have the guilt trip: your poor, well it's your own fault.

Never mind that Americans work harder than any other Industrial country in the world, have the least amount of vacation, have health care ranked 37th, get payed the worst compared to other Industrial countries - except of course the American CEO's who's pay is astronomically higher than any other country's CEO's - or that American home foreclosures beats out any other industrial country by miles.

I guess we can also blame the American poor person for the Wallstreet fiasco in which they took 700 billion dollars of taxpayers money to do who knows what (more million dollar parties and CEO bonuses?). And we can blame Americans for the Mortgage and Loan financial scams that have victimized millions, or the #1 cause for bankruptcy in our country: Health care, and health care being by far the most expensive in the world and yet we are ranked 37th.

The old Horatio Alger myth died in America about 30 years ago, when Ronald Reagan the Right's golden boy took office - and the rich got glorified and the poor were blamed for their own problems - meanwhile deregulation ruled, tax breaks to the most wealthy - and the new Middle Ages and Serf class has been born.

Most Americans are peasants and don't even know it.

[manasi]

I call BS on the whole poverty thing. Both in game and out of game I came from absolute nothing and now well now I do have something.The ability to make something of yourself relies on the person themselves, to choose to make something of themselves. Way too many people want everything given to them as epitomized by the conversations with Velocity Prime. Set a plan of attack focus on what you CAN do seek out news ways of doing things and you will succeed. Peasant? I say...hell no I am the king of my own castle . I help folks out where and when I can and I teach others to believe in themselves and shirk this air of "I am owed something". Once they do that, they seem to really enjoy both the game and life and become kings of their own castles.

[Paul Clavet]

jamenta: When I was born my family was destitute, and I spent more than one night in the front seat of an '85 Ford LTD with a missing rear window as a child. I worked my way through college without financial assistance from either my family or the state, and now have a great job and own my own home, which will be paid off before I am 35. My savings and investment plan puts me conservatively in the multi-million dollar range when I retire. My cars are paid off and I have zero consumer debt.

As someone who was born into poverty and now has a great life, I say that you can take your hatred of our economic freedom and go straight to hell with it.

[Maddock Krug]

Hi.

Looks like the guy would enjoy X3 Reunion or X3 Terra Conflict a lot ... These guys are very similar to EvE with many options and a lot of complexity - but it is a single-player-game ... *sigh*

Mad

[Velocity Prime]

I do agree that most people expect to just be handed success, and while the roll of the dice does come into play somewhat, it is what we do to forge our path in life that dictates our success.

Jack is an example of a peasant caught in the system without a clue.

The funny part about Jack's arguments is I think that he is forgetting one of the most vital ingredients in ANY multi-player game: competition. If that element does not exist, then you are not playing the game, be it EVE, Go Fish, or football.

When was the last time you got together with your friends to play poker, and once the cards were dealt, you just sat there smiling at each other? Does your friend (by winning and taking all of your chips) have a fouled set of morals? Should he give everything back to you, or maybe even stay home from the next game to give you a better chance next time?

By running missions continuously (in high sec) I think Jack has the illusion that he was playing a single player game, making money in order to participate in the multi-player game. (His corp is all in lowsec, I think I cut that part out.) But as we all know, EVE is not a single player game, nor is high sec a single player, high security experience.

Welcome to the jungle, kid.

[Galmarr]

Its obvious Jack take the game way too seriously. But somehow this episode has morphed into a moral issue.

So as others have I will add my 2 cents:
I don't agree with the expressions " Way too many people want everything given to them" and "most people expect to just be handed success" .
"Some people" is my expression, because I didn't take a poll, nor do I speak for "most " people.

The dice is rolled somewhat. Hard work alone sometimes is not enough. Sometimes "getting a break" is a good thing.
Most of my friends, including myself have a poverty story. They are a dime-a-dozen. Being in poverty and overcoming it does not make you righteous or an expert on hard work.

I am now "lower middle class", no college degree, Toolmaker by trade, mid-career, an honorable profession. My wife is a part time Realtor, no collage degree and Happy!

I cannot claim "no one helped me", many of us get help, we just do like to admit it. It sounds better to say no one helped me.

This country is not perfect, its politics even worse.
Just trying to get by with a little help.
Amen

[jamenta]

>> As someone who was born into poverty and now has a great life, I say that you can take
>> your hatred of our economic freedom and go straight to hell with it.

Economic freedom. That's a laugh.

[Aiden Mourn]

[ 2009.10.13 05:27:43 ] Velocity Prime > Hmm...

[ 2009.10.13 05:27:50 ] Velocity Prime > We're still playing a game right?

I LOLed

Nice work man, and thanks for the add!

o7,
-Aiden

[Maddock Krug]

Hi.

You made me think a little more about it ...

http://debrissection.blogspot.com/2009/10/salvage-why-do-mrs-complain.html

Enjoy!